Radical Relating Through The Natural Voice, with Anthony Johnston

In our conversation, Anthony shares the essence of Singing in the Wild, his five-day retreat that I've been on twice (17 years ago and more recently just a few weeks ago).

I had such a transformative time that I invited Anthony onto the podcast to share the genuine magic of this work!

Many of us were told, somewhere along the way, that we couldn’t sing. Maybe we were asked to stay quiet, to lip-sync or not to make too much noise; these moments can go deep and restrict us - that is, until we decide we want to go beyond those limits.

This retreat gently meets that wounding, offering a space where each person's natural, unique voice is welcomed, just as it is.

It’s not about performance or hitting the right notes. It’s about remembering what it means to express rather than perform, and reconnecting with the sacredness that lives in sound, loving presence, and connection.

What emerges is nothing short of magical. 

When we step beyond judgment and self-consciousness into pure expression, something shifts fundamentally in our nervous system. 

'The voice is not just a musical instrument,' Anthony explains, 'it actually IS the person.'

Through practices he calls 'radical relating', participants learn to be fully present with each other without fixing, advising, or turning away - creating moments of profound connection where the boundaries between self and other begin to dissolve.

This conversation vibrates with the truth that transformation happens not through technical improvement, but through authentic connection. 

Whether you've been silenced or simply yearn for deeper relationships with yourself and others, this work offers a pathway home to our most natural and authentic expression.

CONNECT WITH ANTHONY

Find out more about Singing in the Wild Retreat or learn more about Anthony's overall work, Real Voice >

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Singing in the Wild
• 5:18 Anthony's Personal Voice Journey
• 13:21 Breaking Down Musical Barriers
• 20:09 Creating Safety to Express Yourself
• 29:20 Nature as a Partner in Voice Work
• 36:11 Radical Relating and Sacred Connection
• 45:24 Transformation Through True Expression
• 51:46 Final Reflections on the Experience

Transcript

Melanie: 0:26

Hey everyone, welcome to this episode on Radical Relating Through the Natural Voice with Anthony Johnston. So Anthony is someone I've known for 17 years and I've been on his retreat called Singing in the Wild Now twice once 17 years ago and then more recently just a few weeks ago and I had just such a transformative time and met some lovely people and made great connections and my intentions came to fruition that I just wanted to share his work with you, and so I've invited him onto the podcast to really talk in depth about the magic of the work and how that happens and what that is. So before we start, I just want to introduce Anthony. He is the founder and creator of Real Voice, which offers retreats, workshops and seminars to holistic practitioners, creatives, visionaries and people on the path of personal and spiritual growth.

Melanie: 1:27

At the heart of his work is singing in the wild, and that's held in wild and inspiring landscapes across the UK and Europe. His approach draws on the wisdom of ancient traditions and contemporary communication practices. He's got 30 years experience and he weaves together song, breath, voice work, deep listening and I really mean deep listening, voice work, deep listening and I really mean deep listening self-inquiry and eco-spirituality, with the sole aim of supporting inner wholeness and radical self-acceptance. There are nice, clear and ethical boundaries in his work, so that each person, regardless of their background or ability, is gently invited to explore, to release and to give voice to forgotten or hidden parts of themselves that no longer need to be held in fear and tension, but instead can be part of the truly joyful expression of who we are in life. Okay, let's talk to Anthony. So a very warm welcome to the podcast, Anthony.

Anthony: 2:32

Thank you very much. Yeah, really excited to be here.

Melanie: 2:36

So let's go straight into it. How would you describe what Singing in the Wild is?

Anthony: 2:45

So Singing in the Wild is a retreat, usually held over five days, so it'll be five nights.

Anthony: 2:53

It's a place where people come to explore their voices, explore their ability to express themselves, to show up, to be present and to start to dip into parts of themselves that don't normally get expressed or get a look in in their everyday lives.

Anthony: 3:20

I use, you know, safety and trust is a very big element of singing in the wild, so it's part of my job to make it as safe as possible for others, for the participants, so that step by step, they start to get that it's okay, it's okay to give it a go, it's okay to just go over that little kind of self-imposed limit, that self-imposed edge, and also to be inspired by other participants. This is the beauty of working in a group setting is that you get to see the journey that others are going on as well. You get to see them facing themselves, risking themselves, challenging themselves, and it's an inner journey as well as an outer journey. So that I really love is that you are seeing people's struggles and it's being held within this very safe, boundaried, and it is a joy and a privilege and an honour to become part of people's kind of sacred struggle.

Melanie: 4:46

I'm curious how did you start this? How did it first spring up?

Anthony: 4:52

It was about 30 years ago. My understanding of this process has changed massively over those years. There's always been part of me which is kind of musical. You know, I played the piano, I did a little bit of singing at school and, yeah, as a young man I had this very I went through this very kind of confused, depressed period in my life. I had these yearnings inside of me to want to meet life in a more I don't know magical, spiritual, creative way. No one was talking about this stuff and I felt very alone with it. And I started having some therapy sessions, you know, which kind of started to open up my inner world.

Anthony: 5:50

For me there was an opportunity to talk about my inner world and I ended up going to a voice workshop and at the end of these few days, suddenly not only was my musical expression being invited, but my physical energy was being invited. I was being invited to draw upon my inner world, my physical energy, my emotional energy, because the emotions were actually being invited and it was very much part of this particular process. So we were being invited to sing the song with anger, to sing the song with sadness and instead of my inner world and my emotions being seen as somehow inappropriate or a problem, or people worrying about the intensity with which I was feeling things. It was actually coming out to a group of people who were bright-eyed, wide-eyed, celebrating not only my voice but me. I felt incredibly validated and this part of me, this musical not just musical, but this feeling emotional, sensitive, passionate, vibrant me, was being received. And it was like, oh my God, and by the end of this workshop there wasn't. I came away and I noticed, wow, I don't have this sense of problem about me, I'm not a problem, I'm actually being allowed to flow and and it felt absolutely incredible. I mean, you know, the mind comes back in and one's beliefs come back in. But there was something about that experience that ignited something inside of me and part of me. I remember having this yeah, part of me said you know what? This is what I want to do, this is what I want to do.

Anthony: 8:32

I give people an opportunity to do something that maybe stimulates in a material Like wow, I've never done that before, I feel kind of different in my body, or it brings up a memory or something like that. So I'm constantly giving people an opportunity to break off into little pairs exercises. Well, it's not really an exercise, but there is formality to it. So for a few minutes you've got the opportunity to share what may have been stimulated, any comments that you've got, and it stops these from stacking up and it then it leaves people feeling understood and and when we don't have when we feel understood we can, we can show up more feels good to be understood. Wow, you know I I'm not on my lonesome here. There's people out there who are actually getting me.

Anthony: 9:35

But also you get to hear other people, what's going on inside other people, whereas I guess in a kind of a you know more sort of choir type scenario or a learning songs type scenario, your inner world doesn't really get a look in. It's not really relevant, you know, it's not part of it. It's all about music, it's all about learning songs, etc. Whereas I like to take this approach of reflecting on the inner world but also expressing to the outer world, namely, you know, to the group, in pairs, exercises and all with all the things that we, that we do so you had this experience with your own voice.

Melanie: 10:16

Something woke up in you and you just it sounds like you just started working like that and you you'd already got a kind of musical background and you started forming things from there you know there's people out there who are far, far more experienced, accomplished, just like in any walk of life.

Anthony: 10:36

You know, you get the super geniuses, the super talented, and you know, and I used to think about this and think, you know, well, is this an issue? Is this a problem? Yeah, and no, it's not. And you know it really isn't. And I think that there's a little bit of a myth that says, in order to have a profoundly musical or even transformative experience that is open, that is only open to the super talented, the super educated, the super professional and I would argue it really isn't that you can have a profound, transformative, unbelievable experience of songs that are not that complicated. And I believe in that passionately, because it sets up this schism. What it's saying is that only the super educated, super privileged, maybe super talented, only those people can experience the joy of the flow that comes from using your voice, the joy of the flow that comes from using your voice, because in indigenous cultures they didn't have this. Well, this is the musical establishment, this is the musical tradition, and there wasn't the judgment. You know that is one of the downsides of our musical education, arguably. Yes, it empowers a certain percentage of people, but it also scares the life out of of of another percentage of people who, from a very early age I hear it, you know, I've heard it time and time again over the years oh, I can't sing, or I was told to mouth the words at school Basically, somebody in that person's musical education shut that person up. They silenced the person, they made a comment. You know it could have been just a sound or a tut or you know whatever it was, but it was done at a very young and early age in that person's development. You know they're at school, they just, you know, make it, they've been asked to make a sound and they don't know their voice, they don't know what it can do, or you know how to make it go up and how to make it go down and all of that. And then, unfortunately, someone, usually a music teacher, and I'm trained as a music teacher as well, but sadly today somebody can say something, some throwaway comment, and it can just shut the person down. So the voice is not just a musical instrument, it actually is the person and the message is we don't want you, you're not good enough and that. That. That goes it. That can go in deep, be quiet, be silent, you're not part of the group and to be somehow ejected from the group is deeply shaming, it's deeply invalidating and a lot of people they just say I'm not going there again, I don't want to be humiliated in front of a group of people, I will not do that and I'm never, ever, going to sing again. But maybe you know, 2010, no, probably 20 years later people are going well, I see my friends singing, they seem to be having a pretty good time and suddenly this other voice starts knocking on their door.

Anthony: 14:28

Maybe I should open up this possibility in my life and I guess it's those folk who I often work with, so people who maybe are exploring their voice. Maybe they've said I've had enough of this. I've silenced myself for too long. I'm going to find some kind of myself for too long. I'm going to find some kind of someone who knows this territory, somebody who can set up a safe space where I'm not going to be judged, where I'm not going to be judged really or criticized or made fun of in front of a group of people. So that is one of my.

Anthony: 15:12

I guess one of my kind of values or points of ethics that I bring to my work is that I do not invalidate people and I do not judge people and I won't push people into situations where they really aren't ready for it yet. And yet part of my job is also to invite the person to challenge themselves. So throughout the retreat or when I'm doing workshops, I need to see whether, when somebody's saying oh no, you know, sometimes the person's saying well, I can't see how I can do this or I'm frightened of this. I just need a bit of help. I just need a bit of guidance, I just need a bit of support. And sometimes the person is saying really no, I'm not going there. So I've got to have a little bit of a radar and a bit of sensitivity for this, to to recognize those two no's and tied up peter's ego. I want to get everyone through, I want to get everyone to, you know, find their voice and sound beautiful and all of that. So the temptation is to, as a kind of voice facilitator, to somehow take it personally that people are saying no. But I've really learned to relax with that and, uh, I I really don't. You know, I really don't take it personally at all. It is the participants' sacred choice to say yes or to say no, and I've really got comfortable with people's ability to choose yes or no.

Anthony: 17:00

Maybe now is not the right time. Maybe now is the right time. Well, if it is the right time, the space is here for you to take. We'll be with you, we'll treat you kindly and if it sounds a bit wobbly or a bit this or a bit that, we're still going to treat you kindly. We're not going to look away. We're still going to hold you in our kind attention and it's all good.

Melanie: 17:28

And that's what I experienced and experienced with others as well, and that is so beautiful just to be able to be accepted in the wobbles and in the notes that don't sound like anybody else's notes at all, they're just. It's just me, it's just the sound of me expressing, and also to receive that from someone else. Be in that environment where we're simply receiving somebody's expression and all that comes with it feels. I know this is a word that's used a lot, but I really mean it from my heart. I felt it, I experienced it. It was truly sacred to just be with each other. And you know that that's, in essence, why I wanted to bring you onto the podcast, because I want women the women listening to to know about this work.

Melanie: 18:33

Because you call it singing in the wild lovely title.

Melanie: 18:38

It attracted me 17 years ago, but it's it's kind of everything but singing in the wild. Really, it is in the wild and it is singing, but that is nowhere near the essence of it. Yet you need to call it something short, you know, you're able to put on a website. So it's just this sacred expression that is just accepted and we be with each other and that's very profound, because these parts of ourselves that have been kind of squished and adapted and hidden in the background, start to sort of, they start to kind of wobble out and, ah well, no one's telling me to get out the choir now, or no one's telling me that I'm not quite on the key. So yeah, that was a very apt description and I can back that up with. That was my experience. It is in the wild, it is in nature, and we did quite a few practices, not quite a few, quite a lot of practices in nature with nature. Could you talk a little bit as to why you, why you, bring that in?

Anthony: 19:53

a lot of us live in cities. A lot of us spend a lot of time surrounded by four walls, often four white walls, and it's just a different world when you're in nature, when you can see the wind on your skin, when you can see the wind rustling the leaves on the trees. There's something about nature, kind of open to it, doesn't have any agenda, it just is. It just is. We have this opportunity just to fall into our being. So all of that energy which in our day-to-day lives is spent thinking about what have I got to do next, what have I not done, oh my God, it brings us into our thinking minds and it's kind of a problematic, goal-oriented mindset and it's just such a joy to let all of that go, to be held within the safety of the group and to be either sounding or singing or making big, loud sounds. And when I say big, big, loud sounds, I don't use screaming, so I never use that. It's more the kind of belting voice. And when you open to all of that energy, all of that life force that we're sitting on, that we kind of push down in our regular day-to-day lives, when we can open up to that and start to explore that incredible, beautiful, passionate, loud, big, and see that coming out of other people and see it landing in nature. Nature doesn't criticize us.

Anthony: 22:00

And as we go deeper into, as we go deeper into this process, something truly special starts to happen with what we're doing. I don't really want to go into all the all of the details of it, but what happens is that our perception of reality starts to change. By by that I mean me in here and life out there. Me in here and you out there. You keep out because you can hurt me. Yeah, you can misunderstand me, you can judge me, so you keep out because you can hurt me. Yeah, you can misunderstand me, you can judge me, so you keep out and I'll just be in here. The trouble with that is that it leaves us isolated and some part of ourselves feels unseen, unheard, unmet, alone and just on our own. And this process bridges that gap. Incrementally, suddenly, we're being met not just by other people, but we're being met by nature. And when I say this perception of reality where, you know, on the one hand we might be driving along in a car and look out and see the trees and yeah, it's lovely and it's beautiful, and I'm not talking about that, paying that kind of attention with that tree, deeply honoring it, showing the tree through our sound and our song, through opening myself and showing myself, the tree starts to see me on some strange level. The tree, on some primal level or some level I don't understand the tree starts to become aware of me. When I show it to my, when I show it myself, there's a bridge, a flow that starts to happen between the human and the non-human, between the human and nature, and that apparent difference is what you could say transcended. So the duality, the you're non-human and I'm human. You know, am I ultimately, am I really? Suddenly, little magical moments can happen, and I'll give you a couple of examples.

Anthony: 24:37

Okay, one of the exercises that we do in the morning just to greet the day, just to come alive, we stand in a circle at the end of our various voice and breath exercises. We stand in a circle and, one by one, we come out into the circle, and this is a circle of safety. By now, people are friends, they're allies, they're a source of support. We make contact with everyone with our sound. Everyone then gives a sound back, and then I ask people to announce themselves to the world, to life, to the sky, to the trees. Finish that this. This is on one retreat that I did last, uh, last summer, and as soon as in the very moment of finishing that cycle, with the amount of people that we had there, a white butterfly traversed, came into the circle and, on a diagonal line, went from one part of the circle to the other. Now, not everyone saw that little white butterfly. I did. It was almost as if nature was saying I'm giving you my blessing boom in the form of a white butterfly Again.

Anthony: 25:59

So we do singing in the wild, also on the Feast of All Souls, samhain as it's called in the old Celtic world, and it's a very beautiful time of year. The trees are golden, there's russets, they're just starting to fall from the trees and a little bit like when it's snowing. So instead of snow, the wind blew through these trees and it was blowing these golden leaves, showers of golden leaves, onto our group. And there was one particular morning I personally it feels right to me I hold my hands out when people are giving their sound. I hold my hands out instead of, you know, clenching anything or unreceiving. And I suddenly felt something in my left hand and I looked down and this oak leaf, this golden oak leaf, had fallen perfectly into my left hand.

Anthony: 27:06

Now, on a kind of a mental scientific level, we could say, well, you know, if there's leaves falling, the chances are, yeah, there's that level. And then there's this other level of wow. I've never experienced that in my life before and it feels like a blessing, it feels like a message that bridges the gap between nature out there and my human world and our indigenous ancestors would have been very clear, would have been very clear. The gap between our indigenous ancestors would have been far smaller than the gap is now between our kind of clever, scientific, materialistic human world.

Anthony: 27:53

So that is why I like to bring in nature, to introduce this, because nature is incredibly inspiring and if you think about it, our ancestors within you know even our, even maybe our parents or our grandparents, or particularly our great grandparents. They arguably had a far closer relationship with nature than we do now, as wonderful as all of our innovations are. But I think it's a good thing to be with a group of people who are trying to find themselves, who are trying to find their, their voices, to do that in nature as well, and just to remind ourselves hey, we are from nature. Ultimately we are from nature, and there is no difference. Let's just immerse ourselves in that reality, not the separate reality, but in that particular reality of there being no difference between our human, so-called human world and so-called natural world. We all are one.

Melanie: 29:01

There was one point where we were all singing to each other, where only the sound existed. It was only for a couple of seconds, but the individual, my perception of the individual, just lifted and there was just just for a couple of seconds. I could see people still and I could hear the sound still and I was aware still. But it was so sweet, it was just so sweet. We just existed as sound, a vibration, and that's that sort of thing thing like the lessening of this separation between self and others and between us and nature. That lives with me now. It wasn't an experience on a retreat that I can sort of dine out on it. I am it now. So that sort of experience really integrates and shifts it's shifted my life anyway, more so.

Anthony: 30:05

Yeah.

Melanie: 30:07

Yeah.

Anthony: 30:09

Well, this is it.

Melanie: 30:12

It's really good to talk to you about it on this level, because the focus isn't the songs, the focus isn't necessarily the notes or even the voice. It's this relationship that develops between people. I think when I spoke to you last time you called it radical relating. So can you just talk about this notion of radical relating?

Anthony: 30:42

Right. Basically, I think what we're trying to do in life is we're trying to somehow have union, for want of a better expression. We're trying to experience a sense of oneness, which you could call a sense of relationship or relatedness or connection with others. And when I use the word relationship, I'm not talking about intimate relationships, although obviously you know one human relating to another human. It obviously applies to as well. We have this ability to communicate to words, to establish an understanding, so I could tell you about certain things about myself that I want you to be aware of, that I'm choosing to you be aware of, and I'm also choosing that you're not aware of certain other things you know. I don't need to tell you about certain things Now. On a retreat, what we're saying is we're saying well, look, because we are holding each other to confidentiality, that's what we're agreeing to, and that is one of the big factors that makes it possible. It makes it safe enough so that there's no negative comeback or consequence to what I say or how I show up. Yeah, so I know that after the retreat the agreement still carries on, that people are not going to talk about personal material that I express, express. So there's this level of safety.

Anthony: 32:27

That said, there's all particularly I've kind of pondered this term sacred. You know there's a lot of sacred things. You know we use that word. You know I'm sure there's chocolate out there called sacred chocolate. You know there is. Right now, I believe that that sacred can only exist with taboo and by that I mean agreement, because what is being opened up is this different territory between you and me. Yeah, you're entrusting me with material information, with just how you're expressing yourself. That needs a deeper sense of trust, a deeper sense of holding and, I would say, a deeper sense of responsibility. So, for instance, you may be just have gone through something really hard, really difficult, something may have come up for you and and I've got to be able to show up in a way where you feel received, where you feel heard, respected, listened to, and and likewise, when it's my turn to, to show myself through the voice or through the song.

Anthony: 33:43

The deal is that what we agree to is that we're going to be present for each other. We're not going to look bored or we're not going to fix each other, we're not going to advise each other, and if something really tender and vulnerable comes up and we never know when that's going to happen, that we know we're going to be met. We're not going to be. Oh my God, I expressed this thing, but everyone was looking out the window or looking at the floor or falling asleep. No, the whole group is there wide-eyed, shiny-eyed, open-hearted, generous, not impatient, infinitely patient. I receive you, thank you, and adding nothing to it.

Anthony: 34:33

But what I mean by and that, I guess, is how we start to transcend, how we start to go beyond the difference between me in here, in my mind, and you out there, whoever the you is, yeah, the other. And it turns out that we really really want each other. We really love that connection. We really love it. The only trouble is is that we mess it up, we say dumb things, we say stupid things, we misunderstand each other because we're in this human world where we're only partially conscious of each other. Now we can get better at it, and some folk are a lot more conscious of themselves than others and others are less conscious. And the more conscious, the more unconscious we are of the true nature of the other, the more we are prone to messing it up, the more we are prone to causing hurt, to causing trauma and to set the retreat up, so that is minimized, so there's a less chance of somebody saying something hurtful or dumb or unconscious or something like that.

Anthony: 35:58

So I'm always inviting people to refer back to themselves. What is it about you that you're trying to say? What is it about you that you're trying to communicate or express? Oh, no one's ever asked me that. So it's not about you, you this, you that you the other blame, blame, blame, or you're the problem. If you only were slightly different, then I could show up. It's not about that at all. So that's what's radical. Let me look at myself and inquire what am I trying to express here, what's going on here here? And and to truthfully and honestly reflect oh my god, I'm feeling this and I've I've always found that difficult to express, and yet here I've got a an opportunity to express it and I'm not going to somehow fire off at the other, put the other other down or, you know, just make some dumb comment which sends a ripple through the group.

Anthony: 37:06

And the deeper we go, the more we've got to show up in our what I would also call mindful relating. So through the retreat we do have periods of silence and I hear it time and time again People. Initially, you know, to be in silence with a group of people is a little bit of a strange thing. We're always seeking to bridge the gap through our chit-chat. You know Chit-chat. You know I love chit-chat. You know I like learning about people, et cetera, et cetera no-transcript, whatever it is of awareness or just this container of safety and spaciousness where I don't have to be funny or don't have to tell people about. You know who I am and what an important person I am and what my job is, and you know all of my achievements and all of my life and all of this. I can let all of that go.

Anthony: 38:18

And, as we were mentioning before you asked me about radical relationship we come to this place of oneness and that is the golden nugget, yeah, and suddenly we have found what we yearn for, and it is the beautiful, sacred, meaningful, rich, colourful connection between me and another, where I allow you to show up as you are and I don't squash it, I don't mess it up, I don't misunderstand it, I don't comment on it, I'm still with you. I just open and allow and you do likewise, and that brings us to a place of oneness where I'm no longer thinking about the past. I'm no longer trying to fix the broken relationships of my past. I'm no longer trying to find connection with all of those people in my past where the relationship was broken or it went skewy or you know that thing that I never communicated. Suddenly, all of me is present. All of me is present with what we're doing here on the retreat, and we don't have to analyze it, we don't have to therapize it, we don't have to fix anything. And now it's your turn to sing.

Anthony: 39:54

Yeah, and yes, we do come to that place, place, but only when it's safe, where we stand up as individuals and we express ourselves to the group. And I know that that must sound well. You know, to anyone who doesn't really know their singing voice, that sounds utterly terrifying. But that's why we have five days. We do it, we go step by step, incrementally, because to the thinking mind, the mind will always say no, it's too much, it's da-da-da-da, but with a support, with a benign, spacious, loving, kind support, while not being sentimental, you know, with being real, with being authentic but also being kind.

Anthony: 40:47

People can eventually stand up in front of a group of people and sing a song from who they truly are, and that is a rare thing, that is a precious thing, and that moment is why I write. That is the essence of this thing that I've called singing in the wild. Maybe I'll call it something else, but singing in the wild has a kind of ring to it and it's kind of stuck over the years. So when you commit to your sound and the expression of who you truly are and when you know that it's being received and being celebrated in the hearts of others, it's like it pulls something within yourself. Well, who you truly are is being pulled out of yourself. You're no longer hiding, nothing is hiding. You're all, you're totally visible and here you are and by God it feels good. By God it's a celebration of life. By God it's joyous, but on a different level. That is radical, relating, that is mindful, relating and, interestingly enough, in that moment life is fulfilled.

Anthony: 42:10

Because my purpose and I believe this is, you know, this is my personal belief about what we're trying to do is ultimately I'm trying to get myself across to do is, ultimately, I'm trying to get myself across to you and you're trying to get yourself across to me and be received, and not have that blocked or put down or judged or just purely received and when you know that that's okay, it's not going to be messed with, there's going, you know, nothing weird's going to happen. No agendas, you're just purely going to be received, then you can start to trust on a deeper level. And when you express yourself through your voice, in that moment of purely and utterly giving yourself through the voice to the other or the others, there is no, there's no one there. And on a certain level, there's no one there. I'm not thinking about you or what you're wearing, or, oh, you know, she's looking. There's no judgment there. You are coming out and all of those thoughts are blown away. There is pure connection, there is pure relatedness, there is pure expression of who you truly are. Out that, when we express who we truly are, it's not an ego thing. Oh, look at me, I can sing these beautiful songs. When you can open to somebody expressing their true nature through their voice, through their song, it fills you up Because it says, yes, we are all exactly the same.

Anthony: 44:02

We are all exactly the same, but who we are is different.

Anthony: 44:04

What we are is exactly the same, but who we are are, it's totally unique and individual. Funnily enough, all of the memories of the retreat are. Those are those things that weren't quite fully lived. It's the residue. It's like all of our memories are the residue, the things that kind of weren't resolved, the things that create our memory. But those moments that were perfectly lived, they don't exist as a memory, they were just lived and they no longer exist in our minds. So, funnily enough, people say every now and again oh my God, you know, I can up and sung, but I can't remember, because they committed themselves so fully to the song, so fully to the communication. There was no one sat on the shoulder going, oh, that's not any good, or you didn't do that right, that's just all blown away and it is just a pure expression of what you are, the true individual that is showing up and that is beyond space and time. So that is why we can be talking about this now, melanie, and you know exactly what I'm talking about.

Melanie: 45:42

I do and I've got tears in my eyes because I just, yeah, it's not about a cognitive memory of getting up and singing and doing this and then I did the chorus and then I did it. It's just an experience that's in my body because I'm bringing myself. It's hard to describe. I know a lot of the time people go to retreats thinking, well, I wonder what I'm going to get out of this. But for me, and the work I do as well, it's really it's not. What am I going to get out of this, what am I bringing? What sort of state of being am I in that hones and tones and sort of disciplines, in a way, the system to be present with oneself and others. And, yeah, it's literally a transformative experience because now, that's just within me and everybody else that was there and you. So, yeah, I don't think there's anything else we can say. Really, it's just wow, I left feeling yes to life.

Anthony: 47:00

Get it Totally.

Melanie: 47:02

Yeah. Wow, well, I understand why you do what you do. I get it. It's just truly sacred and just a privilege to have experienced and co-created with everybody else there.

Anthony: 47:23

And yeah, I mean you, you use the word transformation and and it kind of begs the question well, you know what gets transformed.

Melanie: 47:32

I think I can summarize my experience as the nervous system gets repatterned, because what we've all missed out on is enough love the right way. One-to-one therapy is great for addressing certain things in certain ways. Groups address different things in certain ways. There's nothing like the experience of actually meeting and being met with presence and kindness and love. That is what actually heals. The other stuff is prep. So the transformation was very physical for me, because I feel more present with other people, my heart feels more open and that's a physical sensation. So the singing as well, it is vibration and it just vibrates every single cell. And they're folk songs. They're not about like, oh, I've lost my love. This is about war, life being for five days by my own and other people's voices, and that in itself is transformative. I can say the things that I know and then just the experience of I don't know, but I feel different with people and that feels beautiful.

Anthony: 49:03

Great, yeah, no, fantastic. I mean, I would like to add this you know, when you use the word transformation, yeah, I just kind of thought, yeah, what does get transformed, I think, is also our ability to show up for each other, this layer of yeah, you know, you will come away being, hopefully, a better singer, you know. But obviously that isn't the aim. It's a little bit like saying, right, we're going to learn to do some hiking and some climbing, but the actual goal is to get up to the top of the mountain so that we can arrive at the top of the mountain and see the sunrise at 6 am in the morning and look over the sea and look over the islands there and just experience that moment, and just experience that moment. But instead of that, we get hung up on the actual walking and the hiking and the technique of the hiking and the climbing. Well, that's not the point. That is the point that will take you. So the song takes you to a particular place. It brings flow.

Anthony: 50:14

So, yes, that part of you gets transformed, your ability brings flow. So, yes, that part of you gets transformed, your ability. But also this meeting the other, our ability to meet the other on this deeper level, this level that is more awake, more enlivened, more alive, more colorful, richer, a kind of meeting where we really feel seen, we really feel heard and we're not turned into a problem or blocked but we're actually gently, kindly open to and it's our relationship ultimately that gets transformed, where ultimately, we can experience this moment of pure oneness and pure connection and it grows our sense of who we truly are, more than our thoughts or our reactivity or all of that other stuff. It grows this core, this rooted core of who we truly are, and we can bring that, like you've been describing. We can bring that into life because it's just who we are.

Anthony: 51:26

Who we truly are is beyond space and time. That's quite a statement if you really think into that. But the truth of who you truly are is beyond time. It didn't happen then or it's not going to happen in the future. It's the present time reality of who you truly are. Things are quite nuanced and you've got to use words and all of that and it can sound a little bit jargony because we just don't have the kind of common shared language to describe these. You know more kind of nuanced states.

Melanie: 51:59

So yeah, I certainly felt it I think we have.

Anthony: 52:02

I think we're both smiling, we're both laughing oh, and the food was great.

Melanie: 52:08

I have to mention the food chef, tom. Thank you, dom. Just that's always so important on retreats.

Melanie: 52:15

We have to feed each other well and the food was fantastic. And I remember saying to Tom, after one particular lovely dessert, after, after experiencing such sweetness in the exercises, before I ate this dessert, and I went up to him with my empty little ramekin and I said that was so nice, it had me in tears and he kind of went oh, I'll make that again. But so important because if the food's off it throws the whole thing off actually so, um, yeah, it does.

Anthony: 52:51

So, you know, and it's like you are open to receiving the food on a different level. So you know, we slow down. We can really just savor every moment of life. You know, you walk out into the garden and there's just that little gentle breeze just moving, that bush, and those blossoms, and then some little bee comes past, and those blossoms, and then some little bee comes past, and because you're so so much more in the present moment, you get to notice the future.

Melanie: 53:28

Yeah, yeah, absolutely, oh, wow, thank you.

Anthony: 53:42

Thank you so much, melanie, for inviting me on, and talking about this.

Melanie: 53:44

Yeah, I've really, really enjoyed talking about it. Thank you, anthony. It's been great to talk to you about it too and and just reflect and, yeah, just sit and feel the experience. So, yeah, if anybody interested, can you let them know your websites?

Anthony: 54:00

Yeah, so my website is realvoicecouk, so that's real. As in real voice, as in voice. One word, couk. And I've also got a landing page for Singing in the Wild itself, which is singinginthewildcouk. Just to say that I do like to meet people, that you know. If somebody wants to do the retreat, I just like to meet online just so that you can get a sense of me, I can get a sense of you. It's quite important that it's a fit. I really want to make sure that it's a fit for each participant. You know this really isn't for everybody, but if it is, then the experience is there for you. So there's also an opportunity to ask any questions, practical questions or any other kind of questions. Yeah, so there it is wonderful.

Melanie: 54:58

I'll put those links in the show notes and we're going to leave it there. But thank you so much, anthony, not for just coming to the onto the podcast, but just for doing the work you do, thank you.

Anthony: 55:11

Bless you, Melanie. No, it's been a real joy. I've really, really enjoyed it. Thank you so much.

Melanie: 55:16

Okay and uh. Yeah, I will see you all next time.